Do unto others...

We just moved to an area outside of Tucson and, without XM radio, we are limited in our reception.  So I have two choices, "The Jolt" radio (with a line-up that includes Stephanie Miller, Ed Schultz and Dr. Laura (don't get me started!!!), or something called "The Truth", which, the truth be told, I would never be able to bring myself to listen to (it's the furthest thing from the truth with Laura Ingraham and Bill O'Reilly, to name just two of its illustrious line-up.)

The other day, as I was on my way to do chores (anything that takes me away from my new house and wonderful, peaceful, idyllic view is a chore these days), I was subjected to Democratic talk radio....Stephanie Miller.

I listened intently so that I could really understand what she (an Obama supporter) and her callers were saying.  It was mostly negative about Hillary - and after a while, I just turned it off.

And drove.  And thought. (Yes, Obamaphiles, I really can do two things at the same time!)

What struck me is something we all know and something I have seen diaried before - the ridicule that, with the exception of her core supporters, supporters of her Democratic opponent and (supposed) Repug converts are heaping on Hillary Clinton.  And, as others have noted, it struck me as absolutely the worst possible thing that we Democrats should be doing.

Now before you Obamamanics jump all over me, please....hear me out.

I know that you cannot see yourselves EVER voting for Hillary Clinton.  I know that you declare that she will be the WORST possible choice for POTUS (coming after GW, I can't think of very many people who would fit that bill - oh, except for Dick Cheney.)  And I know that the train has probably left the station with regard to muting what is going on.

But, please, stop and think for just a moment.  

Contrary to what you may feel, Hillary Clinton is not a bad person.  She is not a monster.  She does not eat little children for lunch.  She is not mean and cruel.  

She is simply a woman of the 60's who had to, and has, worked very hard all of her life to gain the knowledge and understanding that makes her a candidate for the most important elected office in the world (after the past 8 years, now more than ever!).  IMHO, if she were anyone but Hillary Clinton, the majority of Democrats would be thanking their lucky stars to have a candidate as well prepared as she.

But do you realize that all of the ridicule that you are heaping on her is simply SPIN that was spun by the Repugs during the years that Bill Clinton was in office?  

Let me repeat that....

All of the ridicule that you are heaping on Hillary Clinton is simply spin that was previously spun by the Repugs from 1992 to 2000.

You know what that means?

THEY'RE WINNING GUYS.  The people who originally spit out the vicious (and it is) hatred for both of the Clintons are rolling in the aisles laughing their asses off because they no longer have to say a thing....YOU'RE DOING IT FOR THEM.

Back in the `90's we didn't have a cute catch phrase for what those Repugs did.  But now we do....it's called SWIFTBOATING.  You know, take fact X and rephrase it based on some twisted logic or a lie, and repeat it loud and long.  And pretty soon you have created a statement that no one - NO ONE - can refute because it would take 2 hours to untangle the spin.

Unfortunately some of you are too young to remember hearing this hatred from the mouths of the Repugs in the `90's.  That's too bad.  

Because you would know that all you're doing now is picking it up from where they left off and moving it forward on your own.  You're doing the heavy lifting for them.  Democrats are swiftboating a fellow Democrat!

Today, Stephanie Miller was at the top of her game.  With canned cackles and hoots and applause to punctuate everything she said that she found hilarious.  The sad part is the hilarity was all cruel and followed up with her disclaimer that she really doesn't dislike Hillary, she's just supporting Obama.  Hey, Stephanie, with friends like you, who needs enemies???

If that's the case, Stephanie, support Obama.  And stop tearing down a fellow Democrat who could (that's right, she could) be the Democratic Candidate for POTUS in 2008.

Because if Hillary Clinton turns out to be the Democratic candidate and you suddenly realize that your vote is more important than repeating something that makes people around you laugh with glee, then those hateful words and deeds that you have so joyfully been spreading around during this primary season are gonna come back to haunt you and this country.

We're no longer at recess in a school yard where you might have gotten away with taunting and lies and cruel jokes.  This is the real world here.  And the reality of your enthusiasm for your candidate is that you're demeaning, and perhaps destroying, the only other viable candidate.  So you could end up with John McCain as your fearless leader for the next four years.

And know this:  if Barack Obama is the Democratic candidate those swiftboat cannons are going to turn in his direction (yup, you can be sure of it!).  And when you turn in the direction of Hillary supporters for a little assistance to fight back, you will find yourselves very much alone.

Hey, we will vote - and not hesitantly - for the Democratic candidate, whomever that may be.  But without passion.  And without support.  Because like a kid who was the butt of cruelty and lies and not-funny jokes in the schoolyard at recess, we will remember.

What goes around does, indeed, come around.

---------------------------------------- --------------------

Tired of Daily Kos' Daily Hatred of Hillary?  Join Hillary supporters at http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/



Display:


Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 7)

there's a basic principle in politics- don't trash your base.

recent exit polls:

CA  male 46%, FEMALE 56%
MA  male 42%, FEMALE 58%
NY  male 41%, FEMALE 59%

get the idea?


by campskunk on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 12:44:29 PM EST

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 4)

sorry: numbers labeled NY were really IL. i wanted to throw in a popular vote state that obama won to show it doesn't matter who wins... the democratic base is largely women.

NY's real numbers are 42% male, 58% female.


by campskunk on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 12:46:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 1)

But you know,

Nobody told me that women are turning out in record numbers.  Sure they told me that turnout is huge, but they said it was because Obama was bringing in new voters.

Who should I believe? Them or my lying eyes?


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:43:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 3)

I didn't realize that trashing Hillary for being a hawkish corporate sellout was trashing women!

Are you saying that all women are DLC, corporate sellouts who wanted Bush to invade Iraq and Iran?  I certainly wasn't aware of that...


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 02:58:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, but you should be aware... (2.00 / 4)

That what you're saying is WRONG. Both John Kerry AND Tom Daschle are Obama supporters, and they also voted for Iraq AUMF in 2002... Are they "hawkish DLC corporate sellouts"? Obama has almost the exact same voting record as Hillary's, except that she's missed fewer votes and worked on more legislation... Would you call Obama a "hawkish DLC corporate sellout"?

You see, all you're doing is replacing Limbaugh's right-wing crap with left-sounding rhetoric... But it's still false and it's still crappy. Sorry.


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:28:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This kind of talk (1.60 / 5)

is received a lot better in Cloud Cuckooland.  Why don't you just hurry back to DailyDelusion.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:48:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

trash the policy not the person? (2.00 / 3)

YOu can say you think she's a sell out on the war and no one would call you sexist, they could disagree and there could be a debate. but when you say she has claws instead of fingers, and when you can't say her name, you refer to her as the Clintons, and when you think it's okay to call her a whore or a bitch, then it's sexist.  Disagree without being disagreeable is what Obama preaches, but no one listens not even he (he used the claw word)  


Hillary - alternative energy
by anna shane on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:54:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do unto others... (none / 0)

You are also not aware that you sound just like an idiot.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:44:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 1)

Prior to every war funding bill - we wrote and called Obama's senate office - begging him to vote against the funding.
He didn't. But gladly "supported the troops" by crossing the aisle and voting with Republicans.
Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 10:45:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 8)

Great diary!!!!  You're absolutely right to compare this to the school yard bullying that happens between kids.  It's just sad because we're supposed to be adults now, and adults should know better.  Guess we don't though.  


by izarradar on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 12:46:18 PM EST

Re: Do unto others... (1.60 / 5)

Yes, absolutely.  The Obamabots are destroying the Democratic party in the interest of winning.

That's why I'm now an Independent.  


by Sensible on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 12:52:18 PM EST

Very nice diary (2.00 / 8)

The strangest thing is all of our new major investments, institutions like Media Matters, the progressive blogosphere, MoveOn, etc., were developed to counter the right wing noise machine.

Now, out of transient situational ethics, our noise machine has been aimed at allies.

This damage is a lot deeper than Obama's supporters know or care.


by Pacific John on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 01:13:15 PM EST

Re: Very nice diary (2.00 / 3)

I think that may be one of the things that bothers me most.  

What also worries me is that there is a long time between now and November.  I wonder if some of the bloom will come off the rose of people who are transfixed by Obama and then they will have boxed themselves into a corner they cannot get out of.


by Shazone on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 01:18:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very nice diary (2.00 / 2)

I'm worried they will get out of it.  By not voting, or by voting for McCain.  


by randym77 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 01:21:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you got it john (2.00 / 2)

and only the wiser women of this country can save us...


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:11:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very nice diary (2.00 / 1)

excellent point!


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:47:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very nice diary (2.00 / 1)

I might add:

Democrats are busy shooting themselves in the foot, and in the process are snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

How much do you want to bet than when Obama loses the 2008 election, the dailykos crowd will blame Hillary Clinton's tactics for his loss??


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 03:49:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: with democrats like many Obama supporters (2.00 / 3)

Well said.  And sadly, true.


by Shazone on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 01:44:44 PM EST

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 4)

Half of Obama supporters are Clinton haters. They dont support Obama for any issues or principles or inspiration. All they know is "Clintons are scum", "Anybody but Clinton", "No more dynasty", "Bill is racist, womanizer or corrupt".

All these people go line up behind Obama for now. The moment Hillary is out, they will go for McCain or be idle.

I dont see Obama making the country united when his support is based on hatred. Any Obama supporter can shed some insight how they plan to get the hatred votes in GE?


by Sandeep on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 01:46:33 PM EST

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 7)

Very well said!  Thank you!  I've been trying to figure out how to say the same thing, and I am happy you got it for me.

recommended


-----------

Blog: http://fitnessnerd.blogspot.com/

by FitnessNerd on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 01:55:32 PM EST

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 5)

Thank you.  Mojo to you, too.


by Shazone on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 01:58:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 2)

I support Obama and really dislike the way Clinton has run her campaign.  That being said, i think she would be a good (Not great like Obama, more like Bill) President IF she could get elected, which i think is a toss up against McCain.

If she wins the nomination i will vote for her, but i certainly will volunteer, donate and help Obama which i will not do for her.


What would LBJ do?
by Socks The Cat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 01:55:59 PM EST

All I ask is that you consider that.... (2.00 / 7)

when you are angry at Hillary Clinton for "the way she has run her campaign" that you look at the root of that feeling to see if it wasn't predicated on a pre-conceived notion...that's she's nasty and mean and capable of "anything".

Because I believe that those feelings are the ones the Repugs planted in th e90's and have now been used as fertile ground to grow new nasty feelings.

I have seen things in the Obama campaign that, if Clinton had done/said those things would have been blown all up and out of proportion because of the swiftboating that was done/and still is going on.

IMHO


by Shazone on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 02:03:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: All I ask is that you consider that.... (1.66 / 3)

Obama voters are republicans remember?

He keeps bragging about it.


I believe in Hillary
by sonofdonkeykong on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

1000 things (2.00 / 2)


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:13:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The republican spin against the Clintons (2.00 / 5)

and especially Hillary has been relentless since 1992.  Frank Luntz, Karl Rove and many others put alot of work into their media disinformation mission work.  If anyone has read The Political Brain by Drew Westin or seen him speak you start to undertsand how political propaganda works on people's unconscious fears and prejudices.. and how over time you can convince people of things.  Same techniques are used in regular commercial advertising as well.

My theory is that much of the Clinton hatred in the progressive movement has resulted from the right's propanganda.  One big clue is how irrational and over the top people react even to the name Clinton.  Pavlovian response, well trained.

Naturally I recognize there are legitimate criticisms of Hillary and Bill and I think I understand most of them and even agree with some of them.  But the whole demonizing of one candidate while guru-izing the other is just ridiculous. The candidates are mere flawed but brilliant humans.  And they both come out of the establishment and are long time members of it.. our Yale gal and Harvard guy.


by dragoneyes on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 02:53:24 PM EST

I don't hate the Clintons (2.00 / 1)

I just don't trust them.

I will once again repeat the reasons:
NAFTA
Welfare Reform
Iraq

Let me repeat this again:
Unlike the majority of Democrats in the House and the Senate, she voted for the AUMF.

They are a good site better then any Republican, and I will have no problem voting for them.

But they are not liberals.  In general they have spent 20 years running from the word.  And when it really mattered, they bought the right wing frame on national security.


by fladem on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:23:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't hate the Clintons (2.00 / 1)

But what are his liberal positions?


by CVDem on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:43:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Good question! (none / 0)

Other than headlines on a couple of talking points, no one can ID what he stands for...let alone whether he has liberal positions.

I am very worried about his pro-choice position....he recently said that the choice should be between a women, her doctor, her family and her clergy.  Why not just bring in your next- door-neighbor and your former high school coach?

Seriously - he's got a streak of Joe Lieberman in him and Holy Joe told women who were raped that they should just take a cab to another hospital if the emergency room they were taken to wouldn't dispense the morning after pill.  Duh!


by Shazone on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 09:51:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good question! (2.00 / 1)

I rarely read anything from Rense.

Obama to Maine - drop dead

http://www.rense.com/general80/tomaine.h tm

article about Obama voting against government assistance to help low income families with heating oil.

But the article is based on a CNBC interview with Obama's rightist economic advisor - and appears to be correct.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=64 3470081&play=1


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 11:03:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 4)

Critiquing Clinton from the left is not the same thing as hitting her from the right.

I can't remember Limbaugh ever saying that Clinton was a DLC, warmongering corporate sellout.  I don't remember Gingrich ever saying that.

I do remember lots of progressives saying that.

Shall we not attack Joe Lieberman either, since he's an "ally"?  Shall we not attack William Jefferson for having cash in his freezer just because he's a fellow Democrat?


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:00:58 PM EST

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 2)

Thats cause he was too busy saying she was running the country...


I believe in Hillary
by sonofdonkeykong on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:13:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

saying (2.00 / 2)

saying that Clinton was a DLC, warmongering corporate sellout..

is a meaningless slogan.

and repeated over and over, trancelike, till people lather at the mouth.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:24:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

DLC=Third Way= Triangulation (2.00 / 2)

What's wrong with stating that Clinton's in the DLC?  That's an established fact.

The pro-Clinton people here are beginning to sound like the worst of the Obama people.  Both need to take chill pills.

My own personal favorite is, after seeing reams of "Obama and/or his fans are splitting the party with their nastiness", seeing a pro-Clinton commenter in this thread say that he/she quit the Democratic party because of Obama.  So he/she will vote for Hillary, but not for Barack?  Oh, Lordy.  Karl Rove thanks you.

Funny thing:  Most Obama and Clinton backers out there, particularly those who don't spend all their waking hours online, have no trouble with voting for either Obama or Clinton.  It's only the online mavens for either side who are being insane about this.


by Phoenix Woman on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:54:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton's in the DLC (2.00 / 1)

That's not a lie.

You may disagree about whether or not the DLC is a good group, but you cannot deny that she's in it.  Sorry.


by Phoenix Woman on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:55:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's in the DLC (2.00 / 1)

Obama's economic advisors are Milton Friedman types - and surely condone the DLC.

Just because Obama isn't a member of the DLC....


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 11:21:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 5)

The right-wing frames are subsumed and retrofitted for your own personal prejudice.  The "triangulating" criticism is stolen nearly whole-cloth from the Republican allegation that Bill Clinton 'governed by poll!' The corporate sellout is a reinvention of Republican smears (corrupt, self-centered, entitled), you've absorbed it all and are spewing it back at Clinton.  Most of the legit left-wing critiques of Clinton can be equally or near-equally applied to Obama.  Both candidates are centrists - and Obama uses more Republican language about Social Security and UHC - so when you go with chose to attack Clinton wholesale, with these loaded ad hominem terms deeply informed by a decade's worth of right-wing propaganda, you absolutely play into their hands.


by mgee on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 04:18:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 4)

Let's take your critiques apart:

DLC: Of course your do know that Obama's  chief economic guru is also the chief economist for
for the DLC, don't you?

warmongering: Since Obama and Clinton have essentially the same position on ending the Iraq war, you must be talking about the Afghanistan war, where only Obama is talking about finishing the job and even bombing Waziristan (in Western Pakistan) to get Osama bin Ladin without notifying Musharraf in advance (fuck those quaint notions of sovereignty). Not exactly the position of a dove, but then a dove wouldn't load his foreign policy team with such atrocity-linked U.S. officials as Zbigniew Brzezinski, Anthony Lake, General Merrill McPeak, and Dennis Ross.

corporate sellout: That must be why Wall Street's fovorite candidate is <del>Hillary Clinton</del> Barack Obama.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 04:50:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 5)

Sorry--I didn't finish my post. Look--I'm not saying that your critiques from the left of Clinton are off-base. I'm just saying that the same critiques can and should be applied to Obama. As I said on one of my final posts on the big Orange, we have two very corporate-friendly candidates to choose from. Hillary actually seems slightly to the left of Obama on economic policy, while Obama seems slightly to the left of Hillary on foreign policy.

I would vote for either in the GE, but neither of them deserves either the unwavering boosterism or the ugly vilification that seems to represent the dominant of communication on blogs these days.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 04:58:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually, (2.00 / 3)

I have only seen a few Democratic Obama supporters say that they would never vote for Clinton in the general election. I do know a few independents who hated her in general and adore McCain about as much as Obama... but that's a different matter.

But really, I think that this site hates Obama a lot more than Dailykos hates Clinton. In Dailykos, at least pro-Clinton diaries can end up on the recommended page. I have no idea when MyDD last saw an Obama diary there.

In fact, let me take a look at what's currently on the recommended page here:

  1. This diary.
  2. A diary that cherry-picks facts to bash Obama. I have the faint impression that this person may not vote for him if he wins the nomination.
  3. A diary that argues without any real evidence that Obama's the least electable candidate
  4. An extremely insulting diary that cites comments completely out of context in order to try to make Dailykos look bad.
  5. A reasonable diary regarding MSNBC and Shuster.

So 60% of the recommended diaries here are bashing Obama without any real evidence. I don't remember the last time such an anti-Clinton diary appeared on the Dailykos recommended page.


John McCain
by MILiberal on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:20:06 PM EST

As someone who's critiqued both candidates I agree (2.00 / 1)

The anti-Obama vitriol here is unreal.  I really wonder if these people will all stay at home in November if Obama's the nominee.  To judge from at least one commenter in this thread, it sure sounds like it.

Luckily for us, most Obama and Clinton backers out there, particularly those who don't spend all their waking hours online, have no trouble with voting for either Obama or Clinton.  It's only the online mavens for either side who are being such fact-avoiding dingbats about this.


by Phoenix Woman on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As someone who's critiqued both candidates I a (2.00 / 1)

I would have voted for Obama.

But when he keeps saying that he will get Hillary's voters but she won't get his over and over....

And then I find MORE DEMOCRATS want Hillary

I realized that I pretty much will have to vote against Obama  if he is the nominee this cycle.


I believe in Hillary
by sonofdonkeykong on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually, (2.00 / 2)

This diary does not bash Obama.  It bashes Obama supporters who are doing the heavy lifting for the Repugs - the ones who started all of this vile hatred in the '90's.

Again - the issue is that we need to be careful who we trash or we - e.g., the world - could end up with McCain for (at least) four years.


by Shazone on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:57:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually, (none / 0)

I know. And I happen to think that there are very few of those Obama supporters. However, I think there are quite a few Clinton counterparts.

I've heard MANY times that Dailykos is a haven for Clinton haters, but I don't see that at all. It now seems common practice for the Recommended section to be filled with anti-Obama diaries. And your argument cuts both ways. Its quite interesting that I argued basically the same thing in my diary, only directed at Clinton supporters, and nobody seemed to care. Because you're preaching to the choir, and almost no Obama supporters seem to remain at MyDD.


John McCain
by MILiberal on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ths was done to gore too (1.66 / 3)

but without the hip,black candidate bonus which brought even more no little know it alls...

BRADLEY DIDNT HAVE THAT HIP APPEAL.

or the mysoginistic potential.

But theres also the naderite bit too even though obama is exactly the same level of corporate candidate that hill is.

but without the rezko background.


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:20:37 PM EST

oh please (2.00 / 2)


I have only seen a few Democratic Obama supporters say that they would never vote for Clinton in the general election. ..

is this like the "her voters will, but mine wont" bs?

the dem qualfier?


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:28:23 PM EST

Re: oh please (2.00 / 1)

My main point is that anti-Obama partisans here seem to be a lot more widespread and vocal than the anti-Clinton partisans at Dailykos.

And I notice that you have not yet responded to my post pointing out that your diary is citing its comments completely out of context.


John McCain
by MILiberal on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:42:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not to mention (2.00 / 6)

that Michelle Obama herself said she wasn't sure if she would vote for Hillary in the general election.  OMG,  what if Bill Clinton had said that about Obama?  It would have been called "hidden secret racist code" by the media gasbags for weeks on end.  


Hillary/Obama 2008
by Sandy1938 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:59:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Add several more mojos from me. (2.00 / 1)

Great comment!  I laughed out loud big time!


by Shazone on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not to mention (none / 0)

you know..this is the problem with Hillary supporters. they can't win the argument without distorting the truth.

Michelle was asked if she would WORK for Hillary's election. That's what she was responding to. How you get 'vote for' out of that is pure fantasy.  Michelle may not want to be associated with Hillary's campaign (she sited Hillary campaign's tone) .. that's her right.


by JoeCoaster on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not to mention (none / 0)

Obama, on the other hand, has said he would work for Hillary's election (he is the politician remember not Michelle).


by JoeCoaster on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not to mention (2.00 / 2)

What?  The spouse isn't the candidate?  Hard to tell when it comes comments related to our former president.  Hillary gets blamed for everything he says, thinks, does or (might) wish he could do.


by Shazone on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:35:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

GREAT DIARY! (2.00 / 2)

enjoy tucson.

have you read tucson's great edward abbey? if not, you'll love him!


Offend the Media - Vote for Hillary!
by Seymour Glass on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:30:34 PM EST

Re: GREAT DIARY! (none / 0)

Thanks.  I'll look up Abbey for some good reading.


by Shazone on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:01:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It goes both ways (none / 0)

I've written stuff that the more rabid Obama fans have attacked, yet when I try to bring up the debunkings of anti-Obama smears, the Clinton partisans freak out:  http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/10/1455 46/601


by Phoenix Woman on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 03:31:38 PM EST

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 1)

if she is going to eat any children, it will be GOP children once she unleashes on the repugs


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 04:06:53 PM EST

Really? (2.00 / 2)

So SCHIP was nothing? Affordable college education was nothing? A good economy was nothing? Gimme a break!

Now I will agree with you that we couldn't get very much accomplished at first b/c the right attacked Bill & Hillary, and they weren't ready for the attacks at first in 1993 and 1994. So do you think it will be any different if Barack Obama is our next President in 2009? No matter how much Obama talks about "unity" and "coming together", the right will attack him. So is he ready? So far judging from his easy record of never facing any real Republican challenge, I doubt it.

So if you don't want to see a repeat of what happened in 1993, wouldn't it make more sense to support Hillary? Remember that she's already been through it... AND SHE'S COME OUT STRONGER. Obama, OTOH, has not been tested... And none of us knows what he'd be facing this fall as our nominee.


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 04:19:50 PM EST

Re: Dump truck waiting in the wings (2.00 / 4)

What bothers me most is that he is becoming the messiah to his followers. There are the revival meeting speeches, the canned answers from the crowd, the light radiating from him in pictures. We don't need a cult leader, we need someone efficient, hardworking and competent.


by georgiast on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 04:22:40 PM EST

I really hate the canned responses. (2.00 / 1)

Time to blow lunch when that happens!


by Shazone on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 05:50:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 3)


you hit the nail on the head Linfar.

The hatred is equally disgusting even if it is
coming from exteme left.


by BlueSea on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 04:32:29 PM EST

Re: Do unto others... (1.66 / 3)

Obama was hand picked to run by the DLC. Don't kid yourselves. He is nothing new.


by americanincanada on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 04:47:45 PM EST

Malarkey! (none / 0)

I double-dog dare you to back this up with proof.


by baudelairien on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 02:08:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You assume the only way out is to... (2.00 / 1)

leave Clinton in the dust.

How about countering the BS and contributing to putting the swiftboating away?

If the voters - and not just the candidates would say, "Stop it, we're not going to take this crap anymore" it would make it harder to be successful at destroying people - any people.

And make no mistake, destroying is the goal of swiftboating.


by Shazone on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:03:42 PM EST

My dislike of Hillary comes sleazy campaigning (2.00 / 1)

I have nothing personal against Hillary Clinton. I don't believe in republican conspiracies. I do think she has run a sleazy campaign.

From arguing against college student participation in Iowa, to filing nuisance lawsuits in New Hampshire against Obama poll workers, to trying to disenfanchise voters in Nevada, to dismissing Obama as the black candidate after South Carolina (Bill's Jesse remark), To arguing that Michigan and Florida should be counted after she herself said they didn't mean anything when arguing why she left her name on the ballot in Michigan, to sending mailers that claim Obama isn't strongly pro-choice, to claiming that Obama likes Reagan, to allowing AFSCME mailers that criticized Obama in Edwards' name, etc., etc., etc., this campaign has shown itself to be devoid of principle. That's why I dislike Hillary.

Oh, and she voted to allow this fucking war.


by maxlongstreet on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:31:29 PM EST

Many of the things you cite are simply.... (2.00 / 2)

related to politics.  What do you want her to do, sit quietly while issues - legitimate issues - swirl around her?  I don't.  She had a legitimate quesiton about college students in Iowa; she had a legitimate point about the union polling places in Nevada; she doesn't think Obama is strongly pro-choice (I DON'T EITHER - he wants to involve the clergy in a women's right to chose); Obama, himself, said he admires Reagan (a lot of Dems remember those years and don't have any admiration for him), and Bill Jesse's remark was Bill Jesse's remark...kind of like the homophobe minister who Obama INVITED to appear with him (etc.).

But at the root of your problem with her is your buying into the talking point that this is sleezy.  So, therefore, Clinton is playing sleezy politics.  I think she's a politician.


by Shazone on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 06:42:10 PM EST

Perhaps you'll change your mind.... (2.00 / 1)

as time passes.  Hopefully the hatred will stop for the remainder of the campaign and allow people to take their second/final look at our two candidates.

If I have to vote for Obama, I will be holding my nose....but I don't think I could hold down my lunch and not vote or, worse, vote for McCain or (gag) Huckabee.

Keep the faith!


by Shazone on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 07:45:29 PM EST

what goes around comes around... (2.00 / 1)

that's what my mama once said...


Clintonism is the kind of Government I could get used to...
by Mariel on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:02:42 PM EST

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 4)

I agree with all that you said in this diary. However, I think that it there is a lot of assumption on the part of Obama supporters that those of us from the Clinton group are surprised by the fact that Clinton is losing to Obama or in some way feel that he is usurping her, hence our angst.

Speaking only for myself, that is not accurate. I never assumed that Clinton would romp to the nomination, though it is safe to say that I thought that she would perform better to date than she has. The source of my anger is that I see my party being hijacked.

What I mean is this: Obama refers to his candidacy as a movement. Usually movements are about something. The civil rights movement, the womens' movement, etc. had / have tangible and acheivable goals. The Obama "movement" seems to be mostly about Barack Obama. He seems to me to be using the Democratic party as a platform for his own ambition. I don't perceive Obama as a "real" Democrat. His stances on health care, his spewing of right wing critiques of universal coverage health care plans, his cavorting with homophobic ministers in the South are examples of his inferiority on the matter of being a committed Democrat seeking the Democratic nomination for President.

This is shocking. I see the Obama campaign as a stunning and alarming example of groupthink, which makes me very uncomfortable. Obama gives the masses little chunks of gristle to cling to- "hope" "togetherness" "a new way"- without really talking about what he wants to acheive in policy terms as President. He's been running for President, quite successfully, for over a year now, and I still don't see the "there" there.

It is no wonder that the American people are clamoring for someone like Obama. The last thirty years or so have been tinged with ever-increasing partisan bickering and more and more hate in our politics. I just don't relate to those who say that giving the reins of power to an relatively inexperienced candidate who has no real platform besides himself is the solution.

There is a line in The American President that to me is emblematic of the Obama campaign: "People drink the sand because they don't know the difference."

If Obama gets the nomination, I don't know what I'll do. I've always been a committed Democrat, but the Obama "movement" is so unseemly and uncomfortable to me that it will be hard for me to pull a lever for him, if it comes to that. If Hillary loses to Obama, I will take some time and consider what to do. Other on this blog are constantly scolding people who say that they won't vote for Clinton or Obama if they get the nomination. The issues are too great, they say...and in normal times, I would agree. But Obama will have to earn my vote in a way that he has not thus far. Simply putting a (D) behind his is not enough, because I don't trust that he means even that.  


by arkansasdemocrat on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:26:52 PM EST

Re: Do unto others... (2.00 / 1)

You have pretty well encapsulated most of the qualms I have about Obama the movement.  On the one hand, I've always wanted Democrats to speak more directly to people of faith; on the other hand - as a lapsed Catholic and a skeptic in the land of evangelicals - I feel vaguely uncomfortable with the evangelical fervor (the Sacramento Bee article, for example) with which Sen. Obama's supporters approach the issues.  I had a long drive home from a meeting tonight with just organ music on the radio, and I was trying to imagine myself campaigning in the general with that religious fervor.  It's just not something I can match.

Fundamentally, I think that Rezko has - at most - the potential to be a trumped-up scandal a la Whitewater.  And, as such, I'm not all that interested in carrying water for the other side by inflating the suspicious though far from damning set of facts we know with unsubstantiated speculation.

... and as for the comments in this blog about Senator Obama's religious education as a child: I simply don't care.  In fact, I wouldn't care if he were a practicing Muslim running for president.  I'm a Clinton supporter, but I spend enough of my time correcting that rumor (while simultaneously pointing out that we do not have a religious test - blah blah blah - ) that I'd prefer not to read it from other Democrats.  

So... yeah!  There it is.


by mgee on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 12:56:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Please diary this! (2.00 / 1)

Your comment is really incredible.  I have not been good at putting my anxiety into words with regard to Obama - and, while I am more up-to-speed on issues than perhaps some voters, I haven't felt comfortable debating his policy issues (EXCEPT pro-choice ....where I am sure that he is much more in the middle than for women).

But you hit the nail squarely on the head.

Really, please expand this into a diary.  I think a lot of people will be nodding in agreement!

Thank you.


by Shazone on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 08:29:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please diary this! (2.00 / 1)

i have expanded this into a diary. thank you for encouraging me to articulate this- i am upset and uncomfortable, and i needed to express it. it has been cathartic.


by arkansasdemocrat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 07:03:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do unto others... (none / 0)

Bravo!! You speak for me, Shazone and I applaude you for spelling out exactly what is so horribly wrong with the way many Obama supporters act.

I swear, I get to the point occasionally where I can't imagine even going out of my way to cast a vote for him if he's the nominee. I know myself well enough to know in the end I will vote, but that I am even considering not voting speaks volumes.

But, this line here says it all:

And know this:  if Barack Obama is the Democratic candidate those swiftboat cannons are going to turn in his direction (yup, you can be sure of it!).  And when you turn in the direction of Hillary supporters for a little assistance to fight back, you will find yourselves very much alone.


by jen on Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 09:37:15 PM EST

Thanks. See arkansasdemocrat's and... (2.00 / 1)

MGee's comments (above) for a really wonderful explanation for why I'm having trouble supporting Obama.  

You see, his followers (wow...I can't believe I used that word - it really just jumped out of my fingers to the keyboard!) - I mean his supporters are the problem that I addressed in the diary although I feel that his campaign have been doing its fair share to stoke the fires.  But these two comments explain it all in terms of my feelings for the candidate.


by Shazone on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 08:33:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Two points (2.00 / 2)

First, I think it's stupid to switch support from one candidate to another based on the actions of random people on the Internet. The stakes here are much, much too high to be doing that.

Second, Obama and Clinton are actually both very popular among rank-and-file democrats to the tune of 80-90% favorability ratings. The blogosphere is not the real world, and anyone who thinks it is (i.e. Krugman per his latest column) frankly doesn't know what they're talking about.


by Korha on Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 01:24:38 AM EST


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